“Under Mao’s Cultural Revolution, they can find something you wrote, something you said many years ago, and then demonize you as an ‘oppressor.’ … You lose your job. You go to camps. You go to struggle sessions. Have you seen the struggle sessions in America today? It’s called less whiteness training.”

Lily Tang Williams is a survivor of communist China’s Cultural Revolution and now a congressional candidate for New Hampshire’s 2nd district.

“I see the writing on the wall,” she says. From statues being toppled to the push for “equity” to people losing their businesses and their careers because they refused the COVID vaccines, America is descending into the same kind of authoritarianism she fled from, Williams says.

“I thought I was having PTSD. I would literally wake up in the middle of the night. … This is like the Cultural Revolution all over again.”

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Jan Jekielek: Lily Tang Williams, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.

Lily Tang Williams: Well thank you for having me. Pleasure is mine.

Mr. Jekielek: Lily, let’s start with your early life. I mean, this is so important to me, to have these stories. You actually grew up in the cultural revolution in China, under the Chinese Communist Party, so let’s start there.

Ms. Williams: Well, I was born in Chengdu, which is the capital city of Sichuan Province in southwest in China, next to Tibet. And my parents were literate workers. They worked for state factory six days a week. And how primitive the living condition was, people cannot imagine today. And eight families all worked for my dad’s day factory and shared one bathroom. Eight families with children. And the bathroom is a big hole on the ground. And divided in the middle, so half for all women and half for all men and boys. One hole on the ground with two breaks that where you can go squat. And so it was very primitive. And my parents, because they were the poor workers, so we got a very little food coupons. People have no idea when you live in a socialist communist country, when economy was really bad, everybody basically was equally poor, unless your position’s pretty high up in the Communist Party, which is only one party in China, that you get more rationing. From rice, to wheat, to milk powder, and fabrics, and oil, and sugar.

I just remember, my mom always told me I was little skinny thing, because I grew up on rice porridge. My mom did not have milk for me, mother’s milk. I mean, they were hungry too. So I grew up on rice porridge. I was a very, very skinny little girl, until I went to college at 17 years old. And because my mom and dad work for state factories and six days a week, so we didn’t have time to do lots of other fun stuff. Life was all suffering, was no fun. And the politics is every day. We were next to a school where I went to school, for later in middle school and high school. So 6:30 in the morning, the loudspeaker come on. Nobody can sleep in. They ask you, get up, go to work, go to school.

And then we sang red songs. And I was two years old when Mao’s Cultural Revolution started. Then my memory started basically when I was four or five, was peak of his Cultural Revolution. And I was in my grandmother’s neighborhood. My grandmother’s neighborhood had this huge public square. And my memory started struggle sessions in the public square, where people black, so-called black and classes. Most separate people use classic Marxist theory, oppressor versus oppressed. Under oppressor there are five black classes. Under oppressed there are five red classes. I was red. I did not have to go to struggle sessions, but other people were black classes. They have to go to struggle sessions, be public shamed, to denounce their families, their ancestors. And some of them, I remember looked so pale, because they got inside the military truck and going to get public executed.

And I got so scared. “Oh, really? Those people are getting shot?” That’s what they told me. So it was very scary. My childhood memory was just, it was a chaos, scary. Don’t understand, don’t know the truth. But also, don’t know what to think. Because they don’t teach you how to think. There is politics in your face every day. And another painful memory I just discovered last year, is somebody committed suicide, jump into the 20 foot water well in my grandma’s neighborhood. Some people say, “Come look, come look.” So I went there, looked. It was like in a man’s body floating on top of 20 foot deep water well. I got so scared, I just run away. But I was told, if you have a tragic childhood memory, then you don’t want to think about it. So I did not think about it.

I even didn’t know who he was. I did not ask questions. I just remember, no water for a while, they had to disinfect everything. And until last year, because I would think about most cultural revolution in the similarity with today’s America, I asked my uncle, “Do you remember that guy in the water well?” And I talked to my uncle on WeChat. He said, “Yeah, black family committed suicide. He couldn’t handle struggle session anymore.” Where people throw rock at you if you don’t apologize very well. And you don’t draw the night, don’t denounce your families. And then, they might even send you to concentration camps, or get executed. So that’s my childhood. It is just like, I don’t know what else I could discover later, because maybe I need to go to sit down with some therapist, to dig into my memories. Very painful sometimes to think about it.

Mr. Jekielek: Well it’s fascinating, because you were actually one of the red classes, which means you were ostensibly the oppressed. You were the good guys.

Mr. Jekielek: For lack of a better, in this structure that the Chinese Communist Party created. The Chinese Communist Party has this narrative that says it lifted millions of people out of poverty. You hear that again and again, as one of the great successes of China. And indeed, the standard of living, compared to the Cultural Revolution, is a lot higher in China now. Right?

Mr. Jekielek: How do you respond to that argument? That the CCP was-

Ms. Williams: Well I know the differences, because we live on food rationing, share one bathroom, no privacy, and just hungry all the time. And so I know the difference. When Mao died, I was 12 years old, 1976. China’s economy was about to complete collapse. People have no idea. 40 million peasants who supported Communist Party’s communism, starving to death during the fifties. So 1978, when Deng Xiaoping came back to power, to say we need to have economic reform, he was not very ideologue. He just said, “Let’s get some people rich first.” And so basically little peasant to grow food under little land. And of course, land owned by the state. But instead of people’s communes, where people had no food to eat and all communist way. And so it’s when parents I heard, actually start to grow food.

And so say, “Hey, we don’t want to practice anymore, but here’s your land, here’s your land. Let’s divide it up.” And you turn percentage up to the government, as a form of taxes, and then you keep the rest. That just give people incentive to work hard, because they can keep a portion of that for themselves. Don’t have to be starving to death. So this work very well, and Deng Xiaoping heard it. Supposed to be crackdown, because that’s not legal. But he said, “Actually let them do it.” Let’s say monitor it. Then later, basically they did this reform. That’s what going to do it, because it worked. We had more and more harvest, instead of under Mao, people were starving to death. And the central planning, then of course Deng Xiaoping did more reform. Later allowed a little bit of private industry, and private business, private properties, which all demonized under communism. And China boomed. And people not just more their food, but they had their condo, they had their own company factories.

And 600 million Chinese lifted out of poverty. Not by the party, but by their own hard work, and their human nature to pursue prosperity and the freedom. So I do not buy into parties narratives. Chinese people are success all over the world, if you just leave them alone. They know how to do math. They know how to work hard. They know how to cook, and clean, and do IT work, do restaurant. It is like they prosperous. It human nature, if you just get out the way. So free market capitalism, a little bit. And coupling with the decentralization of some economic policies in Beijing, lift the people out of poverty. So I don’t buy their propaganda. It’s all give them the credit. They never give Chinese people and small business people enough credit to say, “You know what? We were starving to this. Oh yes, thanks. Just getting out of way. Now we can actually feed ourself and pursue happiness in life.” So I don’t buy into their propaganda at all. I think human beings are natural desire for freedom, for prosperity. They know how to do it, if you just leave people alone.

Mr. Jekielek: It’s almost like a kind of Stockholm Syndrome, right? Because I guess it’s so interesting how you frame it. I mean yeah, if people are starving to death, then you create a situation where they’re no longer starving to death, I guess they may be somewhat grateful for that. Right?

Ms. Williams: Well, I think, and that’s their talking point. And of course, the people would rather to have better life than being hungry all the time, and no security feeling at all. And I supported the economical reform, but I just wanted to … When I was in college in the eighties, I liked to see political reform as well. Because I was in law school. Rule of law means you got to have a political reform, because the economical reform movement, no matter how rich you become, if you don’t have a political reform to protect your private property, then you don’t have guarantees. Look what happened to today’s Chinese billionaires, right? There’s no guarantee you’ll be billionaire forever. You can lose everything overnight. So political freedom, economical freedom, have to go together.

Mr. Jekielek: Very, very interesting. So I’m going to go back now to this idea. You were part of the red classes, right? So you were probably a Young Pioneer. If I’m guessing, you probably participated in all these communist youth organizations. And I do know that you were a Communist Party member, you were serious about that. So tell me a little bit about what’s that’s like, growing up in these organizations.

Ms. Williams: Well, when I was little, that the best students in the government schools, get nominated by teachers to be Young Pioneer. And actually, I have a story about that. I am wanting to become Young Pioneer so bad, and I was best students. I made 100% on all my subjects in academic study. They called us three merits. Politically, academically, and physically. So all those three areas, you have to score the best. That means we have physical education class. You cannot fail that class. We have a political, moral character education. It’s all about political stuff, and you have to comply. And you are not black child. You are disqualified to join. Mao’s grassroots organization for students, Young Pioneer and Red Guards, you have to be qualified politically. Then I made the best grades, so I was so confident to say, I will be the first one join Young Pioneer.

So naturally, I’m a red child too. No, I did not. You know why? Because somebody reported to my teacher. My girlfriend reported to teacher, said I was too confident. Because I told her, I bet I will be the first one to join Young Pioneer. I was too confident. And my teacher call me into her office to say, “We’re not going to let you to join Young Pioneer, because you are not humble enough and you are full for yourself.” Basically, I got criticized. And I just lowered my head. And then she continued to say, “This is a collective society. Your individual expression of confidence is a flaw, is a drawback. You need to comply. You need to act like everybody else.” I went home very upset. Talked to my parents and they supported my teachers. My parents are not educated. So I also learned a lesson at age of seven. I could not trust my friends, I could not trust probably any family members. During Mao’s cultural revolution, you’re supposed to whisper. Because if your laborers heard you say something not PC, they can report to the authorities.

Mr. Jekielek: Not PC. So that’s not politically correct? Right?

Ms. Williams: Not political correct. Let’s see, potentially can connect you with something like black families, because black families … Look, who are the black families? It’s rich farmers, landlords, rightists, bad influencers, and counter-revolutionaries. Those are very subjective terms. So if you see something potentially against government, complaining even about party, you could be considered revolutionary. So I learned, okay I’m going to join Young Pioneer. I’m going to keep my everything private. Don’t tell anybody, don’t trust my friends. And I just go to school, make a good grades. And [inaudible 00:15:17] Chairman Mao. You got to do all the chanting, dancing schools. And I proved to my teacher I was good. I joined them Young Pioneer one year later. In middle school I joined Red Guards. And the high school communist youth is called a youth member. And in law school, in order to teach in law school after graduate from college, I had to become party member in order to get a teaching job in law school. So I went through all those four party groups. And thank goodness I woke up earlier.

Mr. Jekielek: But let’s start here. Did you believe in this? Did you believe in the ideology? Or when did you start, or did you not?

Ms. Williams: Oh, I believe everything. They control the press, all the media, all the TVs, radios. Me, of course. And then my parents generation, uncle generation, all were totally brainwashed. And I believe that we need to eliminate black classes. They were the enemies of the people, and the enemies of the state. I know one friend that she cannot join Young Pioneer because her grandparents own the land. I believe it. How I’m going to know the truth? That’s what I heard every day. Political stuff is in your face every day. And I just wasn’t happy. How come I did not get to join Young Pioneer first? I was so good student. And also, I was not happy that I learned to be just a very cautious self-censor, and don’t trust anybody. But the thing is though, when you say long live China, long live the party. 10,000 years, another 10,000 years. For so many years in the schools, when Mao died, that was the first time I had some brain left to ask a question in my own head. To say, “Oh, how did he die?”

Because he become like my God. I could see him talking to me, smiling at me from sky behind the cloud. And when we have to burn in the wood, to heat up the wok to do stir fry Chinese food. And I sometimes all of a sudden see his face in the fire. And all religions were demonized. We could not call ourself Buddhist, or Christian, nothing. You got to be the believer of Mao and the communism. So how did he die then, all of a sudden? I thought he would live forever. Like we say, 10,000 years, and double 10,000 years. Of course it’s not science, but we also did not learn real science either. Cancel science. Remember, Mao destroy full old culture ideas, and social habits, and the costumes. So everything was supposed to be destroyed, canceled. Why didn’t I know science? It’s like I never questioned, was he human or God? No, I never even asked that question.

Mr. Jekielek: Let’s talk very briefly just about the Great Leap Forward, because this is one of these, kind of one of the most sort of bizarre decisions, that cost umpteen millions of people their lives. And created this, the complete poverty, extreme poverty that we’ve been talking about. Maybe just quickly share with the audience about that.

Ms. Williams: So the Great Leap Forward was Mao, non-stop. So one campaign after another. Land reform, 380, 590. After 1949 funding of PRC, then he started Great Leap Forward, because he wanted to have China’s agriculture input increase a lot, to compete with former Soviet Union. And because he and Stalin had some conflict, not good relationship. Then he told the peasants how to grow food. So basically grew them really close, so he can increase production. How come central planners know how to grow food, tell peasants how to grow food? And so basically, when people turn over some food and there’s not much left, because all the crops grow too close, they died. And also lots of other bad policies. So when starvation start happening in the countryside, the local officials will not tell Beijing, because they’re afraid.

Remember, all the party leaders were promoted by the higher up. If they tell bad news, they might lose their job, they might not get promoted. So nobody dared to tell the truth. And they just continue to spread, until I’m sure eventually, the central government Beijing knew about it, and they didn’t do anything. I heard Mao is very, very sociopath. It’s like, “Oh, we got lots of Chinese people.” He once said. “10 million, 20 million die, no big deal.” He never, when people kiss his hand crying, to say, “I need help.” For mother, I heard one time. He never even look at her and smile. It’s like he had no emotion on his face. And so, oh I heard, before I was born, in 1964, I heard my family talk about three years natural disasters. I said, “What is that?” And so people were starving to death, no food. But they all blame on three years natural disasters. They still do today, they never know the truth. How many died? They don’t know.

I found out how many died of starvation, after I came to this country and wake up, and start to challenge my past my indoctrination and read the books in this country myself, when my English got better. And I found out all my life in China was a lie.

Mr. Jekielek: How was America portrayed in all these years in China?

Ms. Williams: Well, when I read some histories and I was told, it was, the Great Famine was caused by communist policies, by Mao’s policies specifically. And of course, I did not go to K to 12 school here.

Mr. Jekielek: Well, no, no, no. So now you’re reading sort of histories in a free country in the US. But I’m talking, let’s just go back to China for a moment. How was America portrayed in the Chinese telling, and the Chinese communist party’s explanation of what America was about? How it did? What was the perception? What was your perception of America while you were still in China, before you came?

Ms. Williams: I had no idea. I had no way to know outside world at all. We could not travel. We had no competing news. We were demonized. Actually, we were told to demonize America the whole time, imperial America. Taiwanese people, we need to go liberate them. They were suffering and starving. I was thinking, “Oh, I’m really hungry. How could they be worse off than I am?” I had no idea. I had no idea how we are think about China. We’re totally isolated country.

Mr. Jekielek: But you did say they were, you were taught you should demonize Americans. Why? What was the excuse?

Ms. Williams: We would chant. We would hold our face up. We would say down with American imperialism. And of course, if somebody has a relationship, a family or friends relationship with Taiwan, with Americans, then you could be a traitor. Then you’ll be counter-revolutionary, belongs to black class. First time I heard about America, know what America is about, is after I went to college in Shanghai, after 17 years old. I had no idea what American think about China history, until I come to this country, I get out of China. It’s a human tragedy. Wow, how people could just not know the truth at all.

Mr. Jekielek: Did you have any friends in the black classes?

Ms. Williams: I guess one girl was, because she could never be allowed to join the Young Pioneer. She could never wear the red scarf. Because she told me, she said, “Yeah, my grandparents have some land, so they are black class.” But I went to her apartment. They live just like us, very poor, very primitive. And so we suffer the same by them. But doesn’t matter which class, it just after communist take over, we all were equally poor. If you had some properties, like some of my friends in this country that were black classes, they lost everything. They say, “Well, the armies and communist party march in and kick them out, and live in their courtyard. Nice houses. And so they were just like us, poor red workers class. Except they had to go to struggle sessions. They could not join most organizations. And I heard that. I was like, “Oh, I did not think about anything.” You just said, “Oh, how come you cannot wear the red scarf?” But also, I said, “Oh, you guys are bad.” It’s like sometimes you think there, because that’s what I was told.

Mr. Jekielek: Well, so this is one of the things I wanted to get at. So the red classes were taught to think a certain way about the black classes. And of course you never want to become the black class. So this is what I’m trying to get at. So you’re saying you perceived these people as being bad?

Ms. Williams: Well, especially the ones that we were told, the indoctrination in schools, and I saw in the public squares. Every day you saw, and you listen to the … we did not even have TV’s, right? You too poor to even afford movie ticket once in a while. So every day it’s on the speakers, loud speakers in the classrooms. The teachers will tell us that. And we have to go to every week, ever since you’re in elementary school, we had to take, called a moral education, moral character education. But actually, it’s like the PC, political class. So everybody have to go there. Then you listen to basically the party teachers. All teachers work for this government, so the same narratives. And actually, I did not know until years later, my grandmother for one year was identified as a potential black class, because her first husband and my real grandfather died before I even was born.

When my mom was baby, she had to marry a second husband, which is like poor worker. But they want my grandmother to confess why the first husband died. Did he die as a counter-revolutionary, killed by the government? Or he died like my grandma claim, by his own people. My grandfather was the country outlaw leader in [inaudible 00:26:28] Mountains.

Ms. Williams: Yes. Pretty wild, right? I had no idea. And maybe that’s where I got some of my brain from. And so she was so nervous, to say what I’m going to do? So she tried to comply, she went to struggle session. And my uncle told me, somebody poking her every day in the back, “Confess, confess. What did your husband do? How did he die?” So after one year lengthy investigation, finally they closed her case to say, “Okay, your husband died because his own man killed him.” And not because my grandfather was counter-revolution. And my whole entire family would be classified as a black class. This is the first time I tell the story actually, from about my real grandfather I never met. So I had a step grandfather, which was red. So my grandmother was very relieved, finally well red. But my uncle told me, there’s one woman that keep poking her. Oh, I just, I feel so bad. I mean, of course in recent years, I discovered that my grandmother had to suffer in silence for a year, in order to protect our families. And she complied, she went so struggle sessions, she apologized.

But she was smart enough to keep saying, “No, my husband’s not counter-revolutionary. His man killed him.” She keeps saying the same thing, same thing. So they make her to write on letters, self-criticism. All that stuff they want you to do, it’s kind of, it’s terrible. Similar case, say today. And she finally came out clean. Otherwise, my life might be different today.

Mr. Jekielek: Well okay. So now, obviously you were very smart. You went up in the ranks, you joined the organizations, you became a law professor. And then somehow, you decide to go to this place that you’ve been demonizing for a very long time. So tell me how that happened.

Ms. Williams: What happens, that I wanted to study law in Fudan University, in Shanghai. It’s one of the best top five Chinese universities. And I studied two years, for the national entrance exam. I got picked by the department education to attend law school in Shanghai. The reason I wanted to study law, because I thought, “Okay, I want to search for truth now. Mao was a human being, that’s why he died.” I realized that. So who lied to me? Maybe we should not rely on man, to govern our country. We should have a rule of law society. I want to become that person who pushed for that change. I went to law school. Quickly I become lost again, because they told me, law is a tool for the party to use, to govern the masses, Soviet Union model. It’s not about equality. It’s not about justice, or Liberty.

So I become rebellious teenager. I go to dancing parties, even though they had lots of rules, and dancing party was even illegal and banned. And dating was banned first year in college, 1981. But in 1982, we were going through cultural renaissance in China. And remember, we all banned was talk about political reform. And so all the department education regulation were gone. So we could wear blue jean, let out hair down, go to dancing parties. Guess what I did, as a third year law school student? I met a American student who was exchange student and he told me about Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. My light bulbs came on. And the first time I heard the concept of the individual rights, it was like, “Individual rights? Oh, that’s something I can’t even talk about. It’s all collective rights. Workers rights, women’s rights and peasants rights. Never individual rights.”

And he told me, “Lily, you’re Chinese. You have yellow skin and you’re a woman, but you are created by your creator, god. And you have right. Is not given to you by your government, by your party. You exist because that’s just your natural right. By being you, by being born this way.” I just could not turn that off. So I said, “Oh, America is so cool.” He told me more about America. And I said, “Well someday, if I have to leave China for a free country, America would be my place to come, or promised land. And that day come. I become a faculty member. I was one of the five people, the first graduation class of law school to stay as law school faculty member. I got one of the job to stay in Shanghai. I did not want to go back to Sichuan. It was Western and still backwards.

I want to stay in Shanghai. That’s where I get to meet the foreigners, pick their brain to find out what world’s like, outside of China. And so when I become faculty member, and I thought that that was my probably third awakening point. You have to become the party member. You have to go to every week, political studies. We had a communist party committee in our law school, in every department, besides your academic dean. By the time when I think about there’s no hope for me, I got to come to America. I got to leave China. I have to change my strategy. You need to get permission to quit your job. You need to get permission to go apply for your private passport. Otherwise I could be stuck in China. So I must change my strategy in order to leave China. That’s why I called the flee China. People will say, “You did not flee. You come here legally as a graduate student.” But they had no idea what the suffering I went through to plan my escape.

I go to party meeting now. “Yeah, yeah, yeah, I support.” And I become active supporter and cheerleader again. Say kumbaya, kumbaya. And then finally, I ask my boss, “May I quit my job, to go apply for passport? Because I got accepted by UT Austin, Texas for graduate school.” I had to ask for permission. Oh, he put off until I prove myself. Said okay. And now he got to sign agreement. The agreement, it’s piece of paper I had to sign, to promise to go back to China, to serve my country, after I came here to study to get a master degree, on my own time, on my own money. I had to find American sponsor. I came over, only had $100 world. And I had the no family, friends.

I owe my professor $1,200. So I was in the home when I first come to this country. But when I get permission to leave, apply for my passport seven times. You know what? Every time when I went to Shanghai police station, to apply for passport, they throw papers at my face. “Why do you want to go to imperialist country? Don’t you love China anymore. It’s your motherland.” I get of this big nature. I don’t say nothing, don’t say anything. “And I want to, I come back. I will serve my country better. I just need to learn English and learn about, have a higher degree on my own time and money, but I’ll come back.” So kind of you have to just say all those lies. And so finally, seven times later, I got my passport. Three times later, at the American consulate, I got my visa. People were so excited for me. When I got visa, the line was so long. They touch my hair, trying to get some of my luck. “Oh, you got a visa. Your one foot is already in the US.”

Because when you get a visa, that’s our legal ticket to fly out of China. People are so happy for me. And I feel happy too. Even though when I come here, 1988, May 11th, it was two months before my 24th birthday. And nothing, right? Starting the whole. But I was so happy. That was my happiest day of my life, up to that point.

Mr. Jekielek: So I have to ask this, okay? You mentioned how America is being kind of demonized officially, by the Chinese Communist Party, by the teachers, and so forth. Oh, and by the way, so you at 22 you were a professor? Or did I get that wrong?

Ms. Williams: Because that’s the exception though. When China just opened up colleges, they needed teacher badly.

Ms. Williams: So we were the first graduation law school class. So they needed teacher. So we got the five out of 60 students, all stay in the same law school, to become work staff or teacher.

Mr. Jekielek: I see. It was just, it was this particular moment in history. That’s very, very, very interesting.

Ms. Williams: Yeah, earlier. Yeah.

Mr. Jekielek: And so, but there’s all these people. America’s being demonized, but there’s all these people that are kind of stunned and kind of maybe jealous that you’re going to America, you’ve got one foot in America. So actually, it wasn’t that demonized in their minds?

Ms. Williams: Well, there’s official propaganda, demonize America, demonize capitalism, demonize profits. It’s all the traditional communists do. What they do, right? It’s like our youth in this country also taught to demonize profits, and rich people, capitalists. They don’t understand economics and what is the best way towards freedom and prosperity. So there’s official narrative. Then all the people like me, educated, wanted to escape China. Wanted to come to America to study, because they want to have a better life. And I don’t know how many of them went back, or how many of them like me, just desperate. I got to stay here. There’s no way I can go back, because I signed a agreement two years later. I mean, if I get my graduate degree, I would go back, or I will be kicked out of party. I don’t care about that, but they’re going to send my whole call, a personnel file, [foreign language 00:33:57] on to Chengdu.

That means I could never even go back to Shanghai, because I will lose my legal resident standards to go to the best city in China, most wealthy international. That was tough, because that means I had to make it in America. Otherwise I have to go back to Chengdu or something. So I come here, I visit to say, “Okay, I don’t care how poor I am. I will figure out how to pay bills, and how to learn English. How to get my master degree. And trying my best, how to stay here.” So that was my plan. So I had a big smile on my face. If you see my picture, first thing in America at Austin, Texas airport.

Mr. Jekielek: That’s, I mean, it’s an incredible story. It’s an incredible story. So let’s switch gears dramatically. Okay? Because you made it in America, obviously. So you’re going to be in the Republican primary in New Hampshire. So clearly, you’re someone that’s made it along the way. One of the things that you’ve been vocal about, is that you see some of the same trends. Not exactly the same. I’m not saying that. But you see some very disturbing trends that remind you of what you saw in China. What you experienced, and even the thought processes from what we talked about privately in the past. And so I want to start talking about that.

Ms. Williams: Well, first of all, it took me 20 years in America to get rid of my indoctrinated mind. I did not come here to run for office. I did not come here to get involved with politics. I just wanted to come here for freedom, have a better life. Just everybody leave me alone. I learn English, I got my degree. And I met my husband first night. We dated and we got married. We raised three wonderful children. I worked for corporations. I got laid off, and then I started my own business. So 20 years I was busy just living like regular, typical immigrant, who come here with nothing. Who had to start over at the age of almost 24. So I wasn’t political. I even cannot understand politics. But when I woke up 2008, I noticed some things. There’s something going on in America I really don’t like. How come government’s got really bigger, more intrusive?

And also, they’re using some terms, like a communist terms. And especially, when also Obama become president. And he’s really racist, “We got to fundamentally transform America.” To what country? I came here for America, but they want to transform it. And I notice socialist policies. And today, everybody is talk about equity, equity. How can you have equity, which is equal outcome, which I heard in China before, without the government use a force to rape distribute wealth? How do they do that? Why is everybody from corporations, to universities, and our high schools, and our federal agencies, even include our military. Everybody is proudly uses word equity, or DEI, but equity is in the middle.

I have been educating students as a Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation speaker, for five years. I noticed our educational system have not really taught our kids history. And the horror of communism, evil of socialism, and our kids don’t know. Maybe that’s why they want equity? And they want the socialist policy. They want the free college, and free healthcare, and free childcare, and everything free, because they’re entitled to. It’s a human rights. I say, well what’s going on in this country? What are the learning classrooms? And our teachers even don’t know. Life teachers even don’t know about what Mao did to Chinese people. How many people died under communism in China. They have no idea. They know a lot more about Nazis, but not much about China. And last two years, I just got even more and more terrified.

I see this rise of authoritarianism. We have a politician want to be our tyrant. They want to shut you down. They want to force your business close, in the name of pandemic. And then mandate a vaccine mask. And if you don’t comply, you can do your job career. Your business is not essential. You get a fine if you want to cut people’s hair. And our schools were shutting down, churches were shut down. I thought I come here for constitutional rights of every citizen. How come they’re doing this? And that I saw, topple down statues, changing names of buildings in schools, and burning and looting. Bill and founder said, “We are training the Marxist.” I see people chanting in Chicago last year, “The real solution, is a communist revolution.” You see Antifa marching with all the Soviet Union flags, and they carry Mao’s poster. Karl Marx, big, big poster.

I really feel like I’m reliving another cultural revolution. And critical race theory demonize so many people in this country. By what? By being born white. By something you cannot control association. And America’s supposed to be systemic racist country, like what the Chinese government will tell me, will tell their people. But actually, it’s going on all over the country right now. Teachers unions want to teach critical race theory in all public school district. So identity politics, five red classes under Mao and five red. And now it’s different, oppressors versus oppressed. But to me, I have heard before. And the people might not know, I see the writings on the wall. I see this trend. We are using identity politics to divide citizens and get our citizens to fight each other, instead of united with each other, to solve our country’s problems. And I see families don’t talk to each other during the shutdown. So they even report their neighbors for having parties in their homes, because they violate the restrictions.

I thought I was having PTSD. I will literally wake up in the middle of night. That’s why I start to dig into my childhood memories of Mao’s cultural revolution. What is going on? How come this is like the cultural revolution all over again.

Mr. Jekielek: Well, so people will say, “Well, during the cultural revolution, tens of millions of people died, were killed, died of starvation and so forth.” That’s not happening here. That’s not the cultural revolution.

Ms. Williams: But they destroy you fall, not yet. Before communist take full control of our country, not yet. That’s why we got to hold on to our second amendment. And also, we need to exercise our free speech right now. We need not to be silenced and afraid to lose our jobs, careers, business. Because if you don’t push back, who is there? Who is there to defend our Liberty, our free speech, and protect our children. And want to unite the country. Don’t want the socialist people, or even the tyrants, people to actually destroy America. You see the free world. What they did during Covid, to me is a mind boggling. Do we still have a free world? Why are Western democratic countries taking communist parties tactics, and the shutdown methods from their playbooks? They trust their numbers, their official numbers. But in our country, they’re canceling people because they’re not politically correct on social media.

And you can say something, do something, 20 years ago. They want to cancel you today. That’s exactly what happened under Mao’s culture revolution. Yeah. They can find something you wrote, something you said, many years ago. And then demonize you as oppressor, black class. You lose your job. You go to camps. You go to struggle sessions. Have you seen the struggle session in America today? It’s called less whiteness training. I have a friend in New Hampshire, just got fired because he is a white male in the school. Even private school. He refused to go to slave training. Supposed to say, examine himself. I’m a White, maybe I have a hidden bias? I’m a hidden racist. He’s supposed to go with the flow. He said, “No, I have nothing to apologize. I was born this way. And everyone’s born equal in our country, according to the Declaration of Independence. We should not judge people by the skin color and by the race. But that’s what they want do every day. So what is the difference? Chinese were divided by classes, by political opinions, and by the economical status. Here, by skin color, by race.

Mr. Jekielek: And by their history, right?

Ms. Williams: Yeah. By their history.

Ms. Williams: So how could the people be demonized by something, especially if you are born White, you cannot control that. You are born into your White families by association, you cannot control that. By what you say, what you did, long time ago. History, when you were a child, when you were a teenager, when you were a young man. It’s like, this is not right. Everybody deserves second chance. And we should reduce racism in this country after civil rights movement, to talk about unity, to talk about judge people. Like Dr. King said, based on their individual content of their character and their merit, but not by their skin color. But we’re doing opposite. So I think a far left, radical left, there are only focused on that. Everything’s racist. Mass is racist in public schools. And the AP, advanced placement classes are getting canceled, because that’s racist. And the aging Americans who have a higher economical income, better even than White.

And their children are getting discriminated in college enrollment process. By Harvard, by Yale, because there are too many of you. Who need to have quotas for somebody else who is more oppressed. Who have darker skin color. If they’re White, cancel, cancel. Individual merits and meritocracy is also what Mao did, during his cultural revolution.

Mr. Jekielek: So basically, you’re seeing that anything and everything can be sacrificed in the name of creating this equality of outcome.

Mr. Jekielek: And that is what you saw?

Mr. Jekielek: In communist China?

Ms. Williams: So this kind of identity politics, it’s very typical communist tactic to divide people, get them to fight each other. So that’s how you do cultural revolution. Look at what they’re trying to do. America is a systemic racist country. So what do you want to replace with? And should we destroy all the American old traditions, old values, old institutions? Like a Supreme Court, they were making threats to Supreme Court justices. And the judicial independence separation of powers rule of law, is a part of our American’s tradition. It’s in our constitution. So we should change that? And replace with what? And is that true democracy, once you just replace all that? I don’t think so. It’s more dangerous. We have a constitutional republic. Our country is not a democracy. Constitutional republic, that means you have a separation of powers, and you elect you’re representatives and the senators. But president has his job as executive. And the Supreme Court, other courts have their job.

Judicial independence is very important to protect people’s natural rights. But now they don’t respect that. And they will call all the people like us, we are threat to democracy. But who is the one who is attacking our fundamental democratic process? And sometimes decided by independent judiciary. Do those people understand our constitutional republic system? Or they’re just brainwashed? The young people, the social justice warriors, so brainwashed? They don’t even understand. For example, they only talk about right now, women’s rights on abortion. Then they want to pack the court. They want to, throughout this Supreme Court justice decisions, and later the Roe versus Wade, going back to state. Going back to state, let people of each state to vote, to decide through their representatives. Don’t you think that’s more democratic? But no, they don’t want support that. They want seven, nine Supreme Court justices to codify that.

So they don’t make sense. And now our young people don’t understand history. Even don’t understand our political system. And buying into social media, left media, mainstream media narratives and talking points. And they don’t come out of their indoctrinated mind to look at alternative media, alternative news source. They could watch you, our conversation here. And the thing is, so to me is very sad. Because it took me 20 years to wake up in this country. And here, and I feel it’s my duty now, to have a conversation like this. To tell my stories and to get my message out in the whole country, so our people, especially our young people, can listen to eyewitness story to say, “Hey, maybe we don’t want go down this path. Maybe I should have a little bit independent thinking skill.” That’s what you’re big head is for on your shoulder, is to think for yourself. If you want to shut up people, they cannot speak freely, they cannot think freely, then you won’t have solutions by all the brainy people in this great country, to solve the problems we face.

So right now, our American dream is on the attack. When you talk about inflation, and the gas prices, and so people are having a hard time. Then you can be canceled. Our free speech is under attack. Our children are facing massive indoctrination in schools. I even don’t know where those schools got their curriculums, from all the lefty professors from somewhere, and the teachers unions. But parents have to really protect their kids, by exercising parental rights, and control now to say what their kids are taught. And there’s another thing I want to add. During Mao’s cultural revolution, I was not allowed to dress like a girl, look like a girl, and to even date. If you let your hair down, wear pretty clothes, put the makeup on. Oh no, you can get into deep trouble in schools. So right now you see, they’re pushing down transgender stuff into our school kids. What you do after you’re 18, you are adult, you pay for your surgery, what you want to choose yourself, your business. I respect them literature and leaning.

Republican, that’s okay. But as a mom of three children, they’re doing that in our school to teach our school kids, eight, nine years old, to change your sex forever. In Washington State, they have a bill proposed. I don’t know if it will pass or not. 13 year old kid can make life changing, gender changing permanent surgery, from boy to girl, girl to boy, without parental consent. And the insurance company have to pay for it. What’s going on in our … How about parents? Is that still common sense? And what if those kids suffer later? I mean, even Bill Maher the liberal said, “When I was eight years old, I want to be pirate. I’m glad my parents did not take me seriously and cut my one eye out, make me a pirate.” So we got to have some common sense, and push this down to children. It’s not age appropriate. But they feel like, parents you have no say in what we want to teach your kid. And that when Florida governor pass bill, it’s called the Parent Rights bill.

And then left media indoctrinated all their followers, “Don’t Say Gay bill”. Well, I never saw that name, Gay, was mentioned in the bill. But the people who are not informed, who don’t know the truth, they are used. I call those young people are used like me, like my uncle generation Red Guards. Then later, were sent to countryside. Educated, reeducated by peasants. So you support them, and you can still be later, thrown under the bus. It do not end well, do not end well at all.

Mr. Jekielek: One of the hallmarks of communist societies as they progress, that I’ve observed, and this has certainly been written about a lot. Is that some of the people who are the most fervent supporters, at one point become the victims of the system, very often. The purists, the ones who disagree with the new policy, for example, because it isn’t maybe even communist enough.

Mr. Jekielek: That’s something that a lot of people don’t understand.

Ms. Williams: Mm-hmm. Well communists are famous for eating their own. And I remember there were lots of people at the beginning of funding of PRC. And they bought into communism, and they so excited. They supported the Mao, they supported the party. Mao sold it to peasants. And we would take the land from the land owners, and will give to you. Of course peasants love to hear that, because they were incited to hate their landlords, and to have this entitlement attitude. “I should have some too! Why do you have so many? I have to work for you.” At the beginning, some peasants said, “Well, my landlord’s kind of nice to me. I don’t want to do this.” No, we want your dick. They want to install hatred in your head. They want you to feel very jealous of your rich landlords. That’s a Marxist area. Exploit workers, for the rich people to get rich.

So they supported that. So they all become very active supporters. And guess what? When Mao took over China, he did a land reform. He did kill about women into too many landowners in the country, and seize their private land. But he did not give to peasants. He had a new idea. He change his mind. And for our country, our society to prosper, we need to start people’s communes. Land actually belong to the people, but not you individual peasants. The land belong to the people, means belong to the state. And it’s collective concept, who are the people? People have power. Today in China, they can sell you the land for you to use, to build. And there they make lots of money. So peasants like, okay. What choice do they have? You have no more power anymore. They don’t need to rely on you anymore.

Then you see what happens. People’s Commune, Great Leap Forward. For the many peasants starving to death, they can either beg, because you had to beg with your pass. You’re supposed to live where your household registration told you to live. If you go to another village to beg, you can get into trouble. You don’t have the papers to travel. And you also see scientists, artists, and teachers, intellectuals, also probably communism, for the ideal, what the communist represents. All equality, equity, and take what you need. We are a big family. And the workers rule, all that. And guess what? Lots of those supporters later, because they criticize. Not criticize, even sometimes just give feedback to their policies. Remember, Mao had a campaign called later, 1000 flowers. Oh, 100 flowers to bloom. So he invited the college students, intellectuals, to criticize party policy, give feedback, how can we improve? How are we doing to govern new China?

And they did. They were trustworthy. Get on blacklist, go to labor camps. My three uncles were urban youth, Red Guard’s generation. When Mao said, “Time to go to countryside.” Be reeducated by peasants, because they will become violent. No school to go to. After all the black classes were eliminated, and Mao gained absolute power, purged his political enemies in Beijing, new Saudi, the President Deng was house arrested, lost the power. And the general told Mao, “The young kids are getting violent, fighting charter.” And so, send them away to countryside. Mao did. My uncles went there, without even finish high school, without a diploma. Went there for 10 years. And they had to threaten the government with a massive suicide attempt in order to get attention. Because they need us come back to our home in the cities, because we are suffering.

You promised. We just go there for a while, then come back. And so finally, they come back. But their parents had retired in order to give a job to them. Otherwise, don’t have a job, you cannot come back. And if you married to a local girl in the countryside, you cannot come back, because your household registration now will be in the countryside. So how do those regards feel today? They’re in their sixties, my uncle generation. So no skill, no education. And some were smart enough to start a business during the economical reform and made a good money, become rich. But lots of them, now they’re retired, they don’t have much. They just live on their little retirement income. But lots of them still don’t think this way. They don’t know the truth. And they talk about their past as if was like, oh here this and that.

And they don’t know what caused that, they don’t know. My uncle was very, very bitter about it, because he went there. My favorite uncle, out of three uncles. And he went there at 17, come back 27. Had to arrange a marriage to marry somebody in the cities and have one child. What a waste of time. He said, “I witnessed one girl in my courtyard, came home crazy from countryside. All those Red Guards supported Mao. “Yeah, my neighbor Chairman Mao. Yes, let’s to go to countryside. We’ll get paid by the government salaries.” Yeah, hard labor camps. And one girl went there, come back crazy. She was sick. She was blowing bubbles and the eyes were like, I saw her, and her mom say, “We don’t know what happened to her. She will not go no longer, go back to the countryside.” There’s a movie called Shu Shu, The Sand Down Girl. Talk about a Chengdu girl, just like me. Went to Tibet, as part of Mao’s Down To The Mountain campaign.

Oh, what the tragedy story. A horrible stories happen to those little girls, and the boys. And yeah, my warning to today’s young people, social justice movement, social justice warriors. Please study. Study real history. What happened to Red Guards?

Mr. Jekielek: Well, and so this is, as a final question, this is kind of what I wanted to ask you. And not just to the young people, but so what is your message to Americans in general, based on your experiences? And you’ve obviously painted a pretty vivid picture, and your concerns. But maybe spell it out.

Ms. Williams: Well, as an immigrant who come here with nothing, America was my promised land. In my eyes, America is the most exceptional country. I don’t think where else I could go, that I can have three home business today, and have a financial freedom, wonderful family. And successful, and be able to run for US Congress. Tell me another country I can go to do this. And I don’t want people focus on Americans imperfections and problems. We do have problems. We’re not perfect, no country’s perfect. But can we just be united as American citizens, to come up with solutions? We have lots of brilliant people, brilliant mind intellectuals and business people. We can solve our problems, if we just stop this division, and stop this communist tactic. Equity, equity. I don’t want another cultural revolution happening here. I don’t want to live in a socialist country.

China later called themself, from communist to socialist country. But look at what’s happening in today’s China. People are suffering. Lockdowns, no freedom, subject to food rationing, and cannot not even travel, social critic system track them. And I see the writing on the wall. I feel it’s my duty as a new American citizen to warn people. To say, “Oh, this is wrong. We are going down this past very fast.” And there are lots of elected people into US Congress who are socialist, who push for socialist policies. And the people support them, because they like the government take care of them. For me, I have left in China, I have left two years in Hong Kong. Not too sad to say what happened to Hong Kong. And I want people to rely on ourselves personal responsibility. Rely on nuclear families, extended families, and our local communities and private charities. Do not rely on government, because government actually has a tendency to overgrow and to interfere with our daily lives.

And when they promise you free stuff, remember, it’s never free. It’s paid by somebody else. And it’s use their force to tax, to redistribute wealth. And now they’re printing money out of thin air. That’s why inflation is high, gas prices so high, because their policies are actually destroying our American dream. Which is to me, freedom and the prosperity. So my last words to people is that, let’s be united. And let’s be kind, be nice to each other, and have conversations. If we disagree, let’s disagree respectfully. Then we continue with our American way of life. But America is the exceptional country. And I hope America will stand up for freedom, and for free market capitalism, still always as this shining city on the hill, for freedom lovers all over the world.

Mr. Jekielek: Well Lily Tang Williams, it’s such a pleasure to have you on the show.

Ms. Williams: It’s my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Mr. Jekielek: Thank you all for joining Lily Tang Williams and me, on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I’m your host, Jan Jekielek.

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